In our latest from fellow Kamogelo Tinyiko Theledi, we talk about the representation of minority groups in South African art. Mainstream media often tells the story of majority groups and those who don’t fit into those stories are often considered outsiders.
Kamo talks to guests Mpho Tjope, Rhulani Baloyi, and Kamohelo Sebudi for this conversation. Mpho is an author, speaker, founder and managing director of Albinism Advocacy for Access (AAA). Rhulani is a South African journalist and television presenter best known for co-hosting the SABC1 youth talk show "Shift." And Kamohelo is a live performer and actor currently working as a Junior Creative Producer at Clive Morris Productions.
Find the books, links, and articles we mentioned in this episode on our website, ufahamuafrica.com.
In our latest from fellow Kamogelo Tinyiko Theledi, we talk about the representation of minority groups in South African art. Mainstream media often tells the story of majority groups and those who don’t fit into those stories are often considered outsiders.
Kamo talks to guests Mpho Tjope, Rhulani Baloyi, and Kamohelo Sebudi for this conversation. Mpho is an author, speaker, founder and managing director of Albinism Advocacy for Access (AAA). Rhulani is a South African journalist and television presenter best known for co-hosting the SABC1 youth talk show "Shift." And Kamohelo is a live performer and actor currently working as a Junior Creative Producer at Clive Morris Productions.
Find the books, links, and articles we mentioned in this episode on our website, ufahamuafrica.com.
Kamogelo Tinyiko Theledi 00:02
Sanibonani Ufahamu listeners, my name is Kamogelo Tinyiko Theledi and I'm a non-resident fellow for 2022/2023. On today's episode, we'll be discussing the representation of minority groups in the South African media landscape. Now, sociologist Stuart Hall terms representation as the ability to describe or imagine whole states that representation is important, because culture is always formed through meaning and language. In this case, language is a symbolic form or a form of representation or conversations globally, around representation of minority groups have been ongoing. But have they proven to bring any changes to the media industry? And how have these groups been perceived? Now to unpack this we're joined virtually by activist, author and founder of I can be campaign Mpho Tjope and seasoned journalist and presenter, Rhulani Baloyi, as well as artist and creative producer Kamohelo Sebudi. Hello, everybody. Thanks for joining us on Ufahamu Africa, everyone.
Mpho Tjope 01:02
Thank you for having me.
Rhulani Baloyi 01:02
Thank you for inviting us.
Kamogelo Tinyiko Theledi 01:03
Well Mpho, I'm going to start with you. As an activist and a person living with albinism, in your opinion, how has the media portrayal of people living with albinism created any societal stigmas?
Mpho Tjope 01:18
Wow, it has done, I would say a lot of damage, but recent, of recent, it has been improving. Simply because in movies or television or show biz, even in dramas, they always represent persons with albinism, in killings, you know, it's when you see a person with albinism, you know there will be a killing along the line. It never does represent a person with albinism, as, you know, an advocate as a doctor, anybody big because we are different professions and our business person. So when you the danger about one narrative is that it forms perspectives of people when they see you. They think, oh, it's only a killing. And I'm not saying that. It shouldn't highlight the killings or any bad narratives, but I think there needs to be a balance in the narratives. Yeah. So I think that one, and also in newspapers, they will always say albino, they wouldn't say a person, even the right terminology. And I think it's very important in the disability area where, when you speak of people, you you see a person with albinism, and not just, you know, albino, it's it also speaks to how our native languages or cultural languages always say albinism, like in isiZulu its inkawu, which is direct translation is a monkey, when you speak to other it says, it says occurs, it says it. So it's always bad names used for persons with albinism. That needs to change.
Kamogelo Tinyiko Theledi 03:04
And you speaking of something that needs to change, how would that change look like? In an ideal world? How would that look like for you in representing a people living with albinism now you're saying, it's how they refer to firstly, saying someone is living with albinism, and they're not an Albino. But also, you've referred to the killings that have been that they often seen as people who are used for Mutti, and so on and so forth. So how would that portrayal look for you, in the media space,
Mpho Tjope 03:36
I think, for me, it should be balanced, the same way as you know, you would take a fully pigmented person or a black person, even if we are all black, but let's say fully pigmented, you'd have an actor acting as a, as a hobo, somebody would act as a doctor, somebody would act as whatever president. What that means is that in this black body, there's different spaces, but when you when you just give one person, if you gave one narrative in a story, it does more damage, because what you're saying is that then when you see a person with albinism, you know that there will be a killing. And it's not what the entire population would have been, oh, the community of albinism is experiencing as a whole. Yes, there are some who are graduates, there are some who are into different spaces. And so it's very important to narrate it as it as life is, you know,
Kamogelo Tinyiko Theledi 04:44
You often speak in your engagements, how you were the only one living in albinism in your community. Do you think if there was proper media representation of people living with albinism, that would have made your upbringing and of those like yourselves, different? In terms of you seeing people who look like you.
Mpho Tjope 05:05
Yes, most definitely it would have made it very intuitive broaden the perspective. Because I mean, I am from a small community where I'm the only one with albinism. So when when you see different people, and you see different representations, it shows what you can be. I mean, it's the reason why that the campaign that I formed is entirely based on that, to say this, there's more to albinism than just what people say, and what the myths are the people who are doing great, who are doing amazing work. And we're not saying that there are no challenges they are, but it's not the only thing that is there. So yes, it would have made a world of difference. But um, it has benefited me, in a sense that I'm able to use my experiences and change other's lives in South Africa, and even in the entire continent, actually, as I'm involved in, in many things around the continent,
Kamogelo Tinyiko Theledi 06:09
You just touched on your campaign that, “I Can Be Campaign.” Let's speak on that. What's the drive? What drove the establishment of that? And what kind of work does the organization do?
Mpho Tjope 06:23
What what we do? What drove it was my experience, you know, as the only person with albinism, and I had to, I had to be in grade 10, actually, to see another person with albinism. And my experience also at university had informed me that no, I needed to do something about it. And so what we do is I bring professionals with albinism, from different spaces, like your lawyers, your doctors, your engineers, scientists, anything that you can any career that you can think of all with albinism, from different walks of life. And now we bring, we do it in one province per year. So, in that particular province, we bring 5200 learners with albinism, from different schools, special schools and your other schools, you know, your I forget what the mainstream schools are. Thank you. Yeah, the mainstream schools, and then we bring them in one one room, we bring these 10 professionals so that they can actually speak to these learners that they can be whatever that they want to be. And we also give them and they have to see what challenges they are facing at home. And what do they think their solutions are, in other say, what challenges they experienced at schools? And what are the solutions, because half of the time, we have our own solutions to the challenges we face. So I didn't want to prescribe to the learners what they need to do. So they will come up with solutions and they hear what professionals have went through what they have done and how they overcame the challenges that they are currently facing. And with this campaign, we also push us for those listeners who wants to be part of this, this this, “I Can Be Campaign,” to go back to school and we facilitate going back to school, we assist for them to get classes and sunscreen because at times people drop out of school based on the fact that they have to walk two kilometers in the sun is it causes blisters, it increases the chances of cancer. So that's how you We bridge you know the high number of learners with albinism dropping out of school. And we also speak at that particular school so that we normalize the environment so that the teachers and learners in that school appreciate what albinism brings in, in what they can do to accommodate a learner for example, just printing in larger font, having glasses having sunscreens, these things may seem small, but they are what can actually separate a child from dropping out in a child from being a graduate and also assist, apply for bursaries for the learners who are in Matric so that they can be currently We have more than nine graduates from the program and others are going through, you know, other adversity. So we doing we're doing great, you know, in that sense.
Kamogelo Tinyiko Theledi 09:46
Lastly, we live in a space of social media. It's part of our day to day and it also forms part of what influences what we see on our televisions what we hear on our radios. Often conversations are sparked on Social media, how do you think? Or if if there is any impact that social media has had in your activism, has it been positive? Has it been negative? Has it made the cause, your cause rather, more visible, more reachable to different people, what effects have has the dominance of social media had on your activism?
Mpho Tjope 10:29
Social media has played a huge role has played a positive role. For example. I've had people contact me, young mothers, that's another program that we have young mothers, like you find a person, you'd never know how you will be a parent of a child with albinism. So all these young parents that it's the first time you're having a child, they inbox me, sometimes they've seen me on TV, and they inbox me. So I have a group because of how they contact me. In Facebook, or via Twitter, I've managed to group them together, they have a WhatsApp group where they advise each other. And I add to the group even though, I'm the only guy there sometimes, you know, it's just women so they will sometimes bash men. But I understand it’s their platform and and you know, so that's one example. Another example is that we've seen different lives of persons with albinism coming through via face by social media in it helps change perspective. Among TikTok, you see people dancing, there's been a trending video of a person with albinism, a learner, who has been dancing nicely and it changes perspective of persons who say, Oh, there are people with albinism who are doing this, you know, so so it has done a lot of help, you know, and again, because it's not necessarily owned by, you know, editors who would be telling you, this is how you do things. So you find that there's more voices coming through. So it has done amazing work. Yeah.
Kamogelo Tinyiko Theledi 12:10
Thanks, Mpho. Thank you. Now, Rhulani. In 2005, you became the first blind person on South African TV on a TV platform, and I think that was a big one. What impact do you think that had on people living with disabilities actually watching someone who's living with a disability and actually on a public platform like the SABC
Rhulani Baloyi 12:35
Actually, a lot of mothers, I would meet a mother, in a shop or at a church, whatever gatherings and, and they would say to me, you know, after watching you on television, I was able to say to my child, you know, if she can be on television with this disability that you have, we can be able to take you to school. I've had a lot of parents saying to me, you know, if it wasn't for you, our children would not be how far they are, because we were able to go out and seek out and seek help for them. Especially, you know, with children who are born with disabilities, it started at the hospital. What do they say to you, when they give you a child to take home once they realize that your child has a disability? What advice do they give you? Because my mom told me that the advice they were given was that just let her grow up. And at the right time, we will show you a school where she can go to so it starts at the beginning. And then there's this other lady I met recently, she lost her sight when she was already at university. And she was telling me that in her community, there was this organization, which I also am a board member for that organization to South African mobility, blind trust. She was able to be to be connected with them, and they had to reorientate he went back to university. She graduated now she just found a job in government. So sometimes, it's mostly about parents, who are able to tell their children to say, Do you see her she probably came from somewhere. And for me, the story is not actually about me being on television, it's a story of my family, that they were able to be convinced by the by the doctors to say, this child is going to be able to do what everyone else is doing. We will show you the school will help you with the applications and will help you to take the child to the end because my grandfather believed in them. And my grandmother, I was told she cried and she said how do you take my child to school like that? And you know, and now when I was able to buy my grandmother sweets, I would say to her, so you were crying and now you're able to place orders for sweets when now because I can work and she says, because I didn't know. I said, Imagine my mum died a while ago, I'd be sitting here with you. My brain rusting, whereas I could be working. So for me, the story is about the advice that people are given. When you are born with a child with with a disability, what is the community reaction, because of course, it is a breaking story that a child with a disability has been born in that home, if a child has albinism, my child is going to be a wheelchair user, everyone will talk about you, but how does the community encourage their children to encourage their children to play with you or to run away from you. So it starts at an early age, because I mean, there are people that were in the same class together. And now they keep on reminding me that remember, when you came back from school, we will discuss the literature, the English literature, what you were reading, and we found that you were reading the same thing. And now we're able to tell our friends that actually, we were at school at the same at the same time as her, and she actually went to a proper school where they were teaching them things that they were teaching us. And so you start realizing that inclusion of people with disabilities, it starts at an early age. And because by the time we get to university, you find that the community of people with disabilities is 0.01%. And we have to integrate with to be integrated with everyone. Sometimes people will receive you well, and sometimes people won't receive you. So for me, when I got the opportunity to work on television, it was a plus for me, because when I was at university, I worked at campus radio, and I just wanted to be on radio. So when I started working on radio as a journalist, I thought, My presence and my ambitions were complete. And when I was approached to audition for shift, I don't know I just said, Okay, if it happens, it happens if it doesn't, okay. And then when it happened, I realized, Oh, actually, I can do more than radio, I can do television. And then I started going for cast for adverts. I've never gotten one. And I think, you know, I mean, people in the industry, you know, the industry, our industry is very rough. Everything is driven by the bottom line. I mean, why wouldn't you have a woman who's blind, advertising, washing soap, I'm just giving an example. Why wouldn't you have someone who's blind advertising a car? I mean, I'm not gonna sit in the driver's seat, because that's going to tell the wrong story. I cannot drive a car, but me as a passenger, as someone who appreciates it, you know what I mean? So I'm just saying, people need to think beyond what they're thinking. Why can not you cannot use me to stand in a classroom because I'm a qualified teacher. I'm a qualified teacher, I just never, I just chose not to teach. But I can stand in a class full of learners who can see in an advert and Mpho was speaking about acting earlier, I agree with him. I mean, why can't Why wouldn't you cast someone who's blind to be a receptionist, in a, in a soap or in a drama, you know, if that's what we do in real life, most of these things, like the economy is the one which is holding us back. And if we're not included in things like advertisements, we want the economy will also reject us. I mean, the struggles that I go through when I have to buy certain things, when you're trying to buy insurance for your vehicle, you're trying to buy even a car, when you're trying to go through your daily transactions when you do your shopping, you realize that even people in the shops are not trained to assist people who cannot see I mean, this touchscreen machines that we find it filling stations and all these other things, these things are very disabling. You're actually forcing me to say if I say to my driver, let's go put in petrol I must give him my PIN code. Because those touchscreen things, you have to see where the because they don't have a talking thing. Yeah, like my phone. So I have to give someone my I have to give someone my PIN code to put it in. And I think it's things that are not thought through. We are members of the economy. We also have vehicles, we need your petrol, but how do we access it with those things? Is it those machines that have a dot on the five? Those are very easy to use, I can navigate as soon as I find a five, I know where the rest of the keypad is. I just feel that especially private companies, they're very scared to hire people who are blind. I don't know why they think maybe we're extra expensive. But it's not really true. If I can do the job like everyone else, and I know I can, why don't you give me a chance people, they just don't want to. People are selfish. They don't want to give you a chance. They get your CV and they ask us, How are we going to do this, but they don't call you to try to invite you for a pre interview or a pre audition to try and ask you, since you can read or to cue, how are we going to work with you? I think the most important thing is just for them to ask,
Kamogelo Tinyiko Theledi 20:49
But let's touch on that, since you cannot read autocue. I mean, you are on television. Most of these shows run an autocue you are queued and as to this is when you go on ad break. These are the numbers, these are the social media handles, this is what's coming up. That's how presenters stay in tune as to the progression of the show. Now as someone who is blind, how did you manage anchoring a show? Not being able to see like how did you navigate that space? In, in a sector or an industry that is not as welcoming? Like you're saying,
Rhulani Baloyi 21:23
Well, you use your brain, I had to remember the phone number, I had to remember the SMS number, the Facebook page, the Twitter page, I do remember all four of these. And I had to remember what the question of the day is, you know, you have to remember everything. Even, you know, when when you're interviewing people, and you're sitting, you have about four or five guests, I had to remember who's on my right, who's on my left, and what are they representing? Is it someone who's a doctor, and the doctor in what I do remember their names, their profession, and why we brought them to the show. So it's all about you forget everything out, you leave everything out of your brain, and then you've just focused on what you're doing. I always say that. The thing the problem with people who can see is that you guys, everything, you rely on what you can read in with us, like with me, if I know I'm going to need this person, I'm going to need their phone number the next hour, I just memorize it. And I know, I will remember it without having to go scrolling through my phone, your memory. Yeah, my memory is my greatest friend.
Kamogelo Tinyiko Theledi 22:30
Do you think government is doing enough to ensure that I mean, we have a sector of arts and culture, Department of arts and culture? Do you think they're doing enough to include people living with disabilities within our television or radio and our creative sector?
Rhulani Baloyi 22:46
Well, government can only create the laws, they've created the basic conditions of employment act, they've created the employment Equity Act, they've created labor labor laws, which are supposed to accommodate everyone. The issue as is them monitoring is their policy, is their evaluation that employers are making use of the rules and the laws that have been created? Is there an evaluation? I mean, for example, I don't want to mention mention anyone by name, let's say you have some of this SOEs. They have 50 people with disabilities who are either blind or they're wheelchair users. They're working in their call center, and they say, Oh, could we have 50 people? The government need to start asking, Okay, what are they doing? Which of them are in junior management? Which of them are in senior management? Which of them are in top management? Which of them are in do you have? If it's an engineering company? How many of them are in your engineering department? Did you try and find someone with a disability? Who can work with that at that level of engineering? If it's in broadcasting do they ask how many of them on your radio stations are on television? How many of them are on your social media? How many let those questions are never asked. Then you end up seeing blind people just being clubbed you're 50 or 60 of them in every province. In the switchboard operating the switchboard or in the call center. Then you say, we have done what the government wants us to do. So we need to start going deeper and to say, Okay, we have these people, but what are they doing? What positions are we hiring them on? I hardly I go to this website that that advertise positions and jobs in different places. You hardly see a one that says we are looking for someone with a disability but you people do advertise to say that we will look forward we will prioritize previously disadvantaged groups. Once they get a black person, or a black man or a black woman, or someone whose Indian or color they say oh, We call. So I just feel that even our own black leaders, as employers, they are not doing much to ensure that they do not. Because for me, it's reverse discrimination. You as a black person, you didn't want to be discriminated after 1994. But you still discriminating against people with disabilities. So there's still a long way to go to get people with disabilities in industries. And the other problem, which I see is that the whole thing that, you know, if I decide, I'm going to, to hype up and Mpho on my social media pages, then Mpho is going to be the in person. Everybody wants Mpho, because important now everyone knows him, because Rhulani is on Twitter. She's on WhatsApp, she's wherever, and she's been able to say, Look at this man, look at what he is doing. That's how it works. And if no one promotes you, no one will want you no one will invite you for anything. And because people like no one goes out of their way to try and profile people with disabilities like they would I mean, you guys you know how to play with each other on TikTok, or everyone wants to be this person. Everyone wants to be like this person. But how come? We don't we don't glamorize. We don't we don't glamorize people with disability, for example, you recall, you were commenting about my hair, how come no one has ever taken a chance to say, let's use it to advertise our hair products. But you get people you give them weaves, and then you let them advertise your hair products.
Kamogelo Tinyiko Theledi 26:43
So it's an issue of inclusivity. But it's also an issue of blind people, or people with disabilities rather, are still sidelined. And they still not seen as capable enough to lead positions and sectors that not not more bodied people are leading and are in use.
Rhulani Baloyi 27:03
And I just want to say that to all the people, all the bosses in the private and the public sector, and even in our industry in broadcasting, who have decided to give a person with a disability and opportunity. I say you are brave, because I know you did not get support to all your colleagues, possibly people in HR didn't even support you. And I say, you need to start spreading the gospel to say, You know what, I have this person, they work as hard as any other person that I work with. And you have been brave, you took the step, you took the risk, I mean, employing anyone is a risk. I mean, I've said in interviews where, like, I wasn't sure if the right person that I routed for was the right person employing anyone is a risk. So if you think we're a risk, then take a risk on us like you're doing it on other people.
Kamogelo Tinyiko Theledi 28:00
That's true. That's true. Kamo now, you're very open about your art, your art about your sexuality, I mean, on your Instagram, you very you can be avant garde at sometimes it's sometimes you can be Yeah, you can be mellow, you can channel whatever character, in your opinion, has mainstream South African media done enough to truthfully portray the lives of those who are part of the LGBTI+ community?
Kamohelo Sebudi 28:28
I don't think enough will ever be enough to begin with. And so yes, I don't think they have done enough. I think it's always in a very controlled delivery, you can tell your stories needs to be in a certain way. And in a lot of instances, it's just very much laced with stereotypes, you know? And so not enough has been done. What are those stereotypes? I mean, off the bat, it's the overtly feminine. I'm going to wear skirts, or I'm going to toss my hands in the air, just what you assume would be queer, and not acknowledging that queer exists in very different forms for different people as well.
Kamogelo Tinyiko Theledi 29:09
Is that because of a red tape that exists? Or is it because they are selling what people actually want to see? Do you think people are interested in finding out the other stories of people who are in the LGBTI community? Or is it a thing of, they're selling what people want?
Kamohelo Sebudi 29:29
So I think it's a number of things. So number one, it is the red tape. I’ve sat in rooms where you pitch something queer, and you're told that okay, that's just a bit too much you need to decrease a little bit. It's not entirely palatable to the audience, right? So red tape is number one. And number two, I think it's them are trying to appease the masses to some degree. When you consider how we've grown up and the people we grew up around, they only know gay or lesbian as a certain thing. And so if you present it in a certain form, it feels like it's something completely different that they can't take. So for the time being, I'll say there's red tape, and what you assume consumers want to see.
Kamogelo Tinyiko Theledi 30:11
Now, we live in a country where we have freedom of expression, right? However, we often see reports of hate crimes against people in the LGBTQI+ community. What role, if any, should the creative sector play in highlighting these crimes, but also speaking up against them?
Kamohelo Sebudi 30:31
I mean, I can only speak from a film and television maker's perspective, right? I think you have to find different ways to continue teaching. I myself am a victor of these instances, I don't like saying victim. I think it's a horrible little phrase. When I went through that particular thing, I took time to myself to sort of get the headspace and heal in some kind of way. When I thought it was okay, I went onto Instagram and spoke about it. I think if you do go through my Instagram, you get the idea that everything is always okay. And it looks okay. But there was one time to say, Okay, we need to actually talk about the things that we go through. So finding different ways to educate, and I think it needs to be in the most authentic way. We are at a point where we're trying to avoid playing into the stereotypical tropes, right? So don't portray queerness as constant rejection, as hurt and and but this is also part of who we are as well. And it needs to be shown in some degree. This way, the reason TV, grouchy, what does that mean? Its like I don’t know how to describe it, but like showed, in its truest nature, right. Yeah. And I think that needs to be a thing too, is that we need to see these things as they happen and how they happen, and also show the implications of that. You beating me up for who I am, plays a different role to me than what it does for you. And so some way somehow, someone's homophobic daddies understand what this means for me.
Kamogelo Tinyiko Theledi 32:12
When did you know you were different? Like, when was that moment when I think I think we all don't realize our imperfections until someone points it out. We don't look at our differences or notice our differences until someone points it out, or until we integrate with another part of the world that wasn't part of our daily. When was that moment for you when you realized you were actually different compared to what a boy growing up in Bloemfontein was supposed to look like? Ideally,
Kamohelo Sebudi 32:45
Yeah. So I think very early on, right? early as in the point in your life, where you start to have your own thinking process per se, I started gravitating towards women a very, very long time ago. So from the beginning, I wanted the dolls. As stereotypical as that might sound, I did want the dolls. I didn't want the clothes or anything. But this particular energy made more sense for me. Till this day, my closest friends are females or no woman identifying people. And so from a very young age, I have pictures where I'm posing with my hands on my waist at the age of six. And so yes, you do have people pointing out differences. But I think the toughness was in the accepting it for myself. I knew it was there for a very long time, just a matter of how do you get to a point where you're okay with who you are.
Kamogelo Tinyiko Theledi 33:42
Now we live in, I'd like to say, somewhat conservative country, right, as much as we have social media and we there's a lot of conservativeness in how we move, we're not at a speed as like your other countries. For instance, if you look at drag culture in the US, compared to drag culture in South Africa, it's very different. I've only been to one drag show and one drag bar. Where else if you go to New York, you might find several of them, right? How do we navigate to telling your story as a queer African in a conservative country like ours?
Kamohelo Sebudi 34:22
So despite how conservative we are, we have a market as well. Right? So I think more than anything, give us the time and space and the funding to tell our stories. There are people that want to hear them and they want to see them so much of being given the time and space. And again, the funding.
Kamogelo Tinyiko Theledi 34:42
Yes, the funding. Do you think there's an othering when it comes to the distribution of funds?
Kamohelo Sebudi 34:49
Yeah, to some extent, yes. And this is going back to red tape again. Our industry has had and still does have a lot of gatekeepers, and in a lot instances These are old, not just black, but men that decide things amongst themselves. And that's just it. Luckily, we are approaching a time where in fact, we just got into a time where people that are in the lead are different people that are giving us the time and space, but the gatekeepers have always been the issue in that regard,
Kamogelo Tinyiko Theledi 35:24
Mpho I'm gonna bring you back in on this one - gatekeeping. Have you faced any form of gatekeeping? When it comes to either applying for funding for your campaigns, or trying to promote your books or trying to promote any activism work? Have you experienced any gatekeeping? within the industry?
Mpho Tjope 35:46
Yeah, there is definitely gatekeeping. But it's, it comes in a different form. I think for us, for me, it rather comes in, in a form of there will be like, Okay, we don't want this kind of story. We want a story that we want. They would want a story where it suits them, if it doesn't suit them. If you're saying, Okay, I want a story of a person with albinism, who's doing this and that, and this, they would then say, no, but they would want is the same as interviews, they would want you to speak about certain things. I remember, a lady once said, they were interviewing her, and solicit, so tell us about the pain of, of growing up. But this girl is born, I think 2000. So the challenges that were faced by people in the 90s, or the 80s. Were not there. And she had already many people with albinism in her home. So she was protected. So she didn't have negative stories. And it was a challenge. So they said, No, we canceled the interview. Because somehow people want what they want, and they want narratives. So that's how they control funding. Also, they want you to do they go with prescriptions, okay, if you do this, if you do this, but if you don't want to tell a story, where you are a victim, then it's a bit of a challenge, you know?
Kamogelo Tinyiko Theledi 37:17
Rhulani, Do you think that's what people want to hear? When it comes to you that every time they speak to you, they want to hear about the sad story? Like, they don't want to know, oh, you've traveled to this country, or you have bought this or you have this you actually have normalcy, some form of normalcy.
Rhulani Baloyi 37:34
Okay, this this other day, a colleague of mine hosted me on her radio show. And do you know what the callers were saying? That guest of yours just sounds like someone who grew up in privilege. That’s what they said and I laughed. And then I like, Okay. I don't know what is the definition of privilege. I grew up in Limpopo in a small village called Elim, where we didn't have power until the 1990s, we didn't have a phone at home. It was just a normal home where parents woke up and went to work like everyone else. Maybe my self confidence is the one that makes me don't focus on those students in class at university when the lecturer said divide yourself into groups of four, and no one wanted to sit with me. For me, that's not the focus of my story. I'm not defined by rejection. I'm not defined by discrimination. You know? And if that's what people want to hear, fine. I mean, that's another story. If you call me to your show, and you want to know through my what, what has been what my journey has been, like, I have a right to choose to tell you what I want to tell you. But I cannot be angry with those students. I don't even know who they were, but who people would not choose to be with me in their group until the lecture put me in a specific group. You know what I mean? Yeah, I focused on people who were my friends at varsity, people who went clubbing with Yes, I did go clubbing? Yes, yeah. I focused on people who took me to do naughty things that young people do when we played pranks on boys. Those for me, are what created me and made me so take me along. To tell my story, the way I understand it, and the way I want you to know it. Don't call me to say, We want you to come and tell us how you were forgotten at a bus station and you didn't know where you're supposed to go. You're not gonna get that story. Because I grew up in a family way. I was the first grandchild. So the other ones when they came my younger cousins and siblings when they came I was already the so I cannot to come say I come from a home where I was misunderstood, they were forced to understand me because they found me there.
Kamogelo Tinyiko Theledi 40:07
Kamo with you, yeah. Do you think it's the opposite, that people who are part of the LGBTI plus community have to be over the top, like, you can't just be normal, or you can't just be or have a sad day or have a normal story, you always have to be the life of the party or portrayed in our media as the life of the party I've seen and how our our game shows have guests, right? They'll have your male, your female, maybe add someone who's racially ambiguous, but then they have to add someone part of the LGBTQ plus community to add spice.
Kamohelo Sebudi 40:45
To add spice, colors.
Kamogelo Tinyiko Theledi 40:48
Do you feel that pressure that you always have to be that character, and that's the only character version people often accept?
Kamohelo Sebudi 40:56
Well not for me, per se. But speak back to what Mpho was saying it's a real thing, right is that also when you do pitch for things, it's you can't just come with a story and say, here's a story about two boys that are just in love. Somebody needs to be coming out, somebody needs to be rejected, somebody needs to be abused. And that is how you get your funding. And it's how you get your story to get commissioned. But in a personal capacity. No, I'm going to give you me as I come in any day. And that's just it. So if today, I'm sad, I'm going to be sad, and you'll have to deal with it. And that says that, luckily, I don't have a lot to be said about. So in a lot of instances, you're gonna catch me very happy. And in a generally good mood. And I think it's also in how I was raised. My mom did not say Don't, don't show weakness or whatever, whatever. But is that like, you're not just the only one going through stuff. Right? And so if you can make space for someone else to make space for someone else, and so,
Rhulani Baloyi 41:56
Yeah, yeah. And also, what Kamo was saying is right, because if we sitting at as girls, we telling stories of those boys who mistreated us, there is no specific story for Rhulani because she's blind she was badly treated in find that the same guy who treated me badly is going to go and treat another woman who can see badly. So we should not try to create a separate script for people with disabilities. Because like, for example, if you're going to put together a panel of, of people to talk about something, why don't you just invite me to be part of that? I mean, if you're going to want to talk about the media industry, why don't you just invite me to give my personal opinion about it? Like, I would not want to join an organization only to be a disability specialist. I'm not a disability specialist. I'm just someone who has a disability. And you may find that, my understanding, I have not studied disability at university, you may find that I have a better understanding of other things other than issues of disability. And it doesn't mean I have to present a show, which speaks about issues of disability only because other people expect you to focus on that. And I have a lot to offer. I mean, when I was a junior reporter, people used to be shocked when I would rock up and with my microphone wanting to do that interview with them. Like, there was this guy who was a prosecutor at the Joburg High Court we never met before. But one day, he was working on a case where I was assigned to do and I didn't go to the court that day, then I called him. I said, I need what happened because I sort of knew that the case wasn't gonna sit. So he just told me no, it was postponed to this day and these other reasons, then I wrote the story. Then the following. It went on for a while with different stories. I would call him and say hey, do you know anything about this case? Do you think it's gonna sit? So one day there was a trial that I was covering? There's this other guy who has tried for, for stealing metric papers. It's just this this thing has been going on forever. So I called him one afternoon I said, Listen, I'll be coming to the Joburg Magistrates Court, this trial that I'll be covering. Just check where the specific trial is going to be sitting, come and say hello. So and then in the morning, according to me what I was wearing. So he came during the trial. So if our you know, you came and sat with us on the media bench, and then we're just like talking so fine. The following day, I called him the Star Wars and says Oh, thanks. It was great to meet you does it does a white young men white young prosecutor and a black blind journalist. He says Can I please ask you something kind of like Yes. I didn't know you're blind. I'm like, Yeah, but I'm a journalist. It's like, I went home and I told my mom.
Kamogelo Tinyiko Theledi 44:58
Because I think it's different, right. And it just speaks to how there needs to be more of it. Right? I think there needs to be more of body needs to be more of relearning, there needs to be more of karma in terms of that in the next few years. It shouldn't be a phenomenon. It should be normal that it should be, oh, she's an actor. There's a rom com and there's a there's a blind lady in the drum comment is not played by an actor pretending or portraying a blind character. It's actually by a blind actor. But lastly, on your side, what message would you have for someone like yourself listening to the podcast, something perhaps you wish you had known while navigating the early stages of life?
Mpho Tjope 45:47
The messages that I have is, I think parents need to love their kids, regardless, even if they don't have a disability, or they have a disability because I think that's what kept me because I knew I was loved. And that helps a lot because it builds self confidence it makes, you know, even when you are rejected, you know, that there's there's somewhere where you where you are not. And also, people must practice, I know we say, inclusion. But I believe in our saying this to the Mandela, Washington data time leaders, that we need to be intentional about inclusion, you can't just say people are included people who have been excluded for 100 years. Even on an application, if you say people with disabilities are encouraged, that's not enough. You need to go and find people with disabilities and make sure that you interview them. Because if you just say that they are encouraged, and you have not that the platform has never been there for them. That is a problem. Intentional inclusion in even in advertisement of gender based violence. Because I mean, if you look at it, you we have an image of, you know, able bodied woman as an abused woman, but people with disabilities are more vulnerable to be abused. Even on adverts like that, on serious campaigns, they are not included. So we need to be intentional about our inclusion. Thank you.
Mpho Tjope 47:23
Thanks, Mpho, Kamo for you.
Kamohelo Sebudi 47:26
I think more than anything, you're okay. You're normal, it's going to be okay. Keep fighting for yourself as long as you can. In the nicest way, you only have you. So you need to make things work.
Kamogelo Tinyiko Theledi 47:41
Rhulani.
Rhulani Baloyi 47:42
I just want to say to all employers in all the sectors, guys, we pay tax like you guys. So we keep this economy running, we buy your brands. So please include us in employment opportunities in any other opportunities. Like think as to how as Mpho said, find us we are here. Some of us we are on social media, we are easy to find, but do research. Why don't you go to universities and say I'm looking among my young graduates, I want to get people with disabilities. Most universities in South Africa, they have disabled disabled students units, they should be able to give you referrals and you choose which one you think goes with what your company does. So go out, do your own research. Go to institutions look for us. There's a lot of drama students who would want to be actors and actresses, find them, go do anything and everything. And we want to get your phone calls. I get happy when I get referrals to people call me and say, I work in HR, I'm looking for such a person and I'm able to say, go this place and find you will find you will find who you are looking for all I know a friend or I know someone who will be able to help you. You know, it's so nice to get a phone call from a parent asking you how should I help my daughter? Or you get a call from someone in a company to say, Who do you think we can get for this position? We'll give you referrals. Let's include each other because at the end of the day, the economy does not say this the money from a disabled person or not. It doesn't say this money from a member of the LGBTQI or someone who has albinism. It is our economy. We all must run it together and let's do that.
Kamogelo Tinyiko Theledi 49:40
Inclusion, inclusion, inclusion. Well, that's all we have on today's episode. Let's engage on social media. More about this topic until next time.
Kim Yi Dionne 49:56
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Ufahamu Africa. You can find more episodes, show notes, and transcripts on our website, ufahamuafrica.com.
This podcast is produced and managed by Megan DeMint with help from production assistants Chukwufunanya Ikechukwu, Alex Kozak, and Ami Tamakloe. Our non-resident podcast fellows are Bamba Ndiaye, Maseke Rioba, Takondwa Priscilla Semphere, and Kamogelo Tinyiko Theledi.
We are generously supported by the Carnegie Corporation of New York and receive research assistance from Cornell University and the University of California, Riverside. Our music is courtesy of Kevin MacLeod.
Until next week, safiri salama.